TRIBUNALS OF INQUIRY (EVIDENCE)
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AT THE PUBLIC INQUIRY
INCIDENT AT DUNBLANE
HON LORD CULLEN
FRIDAY, 31st MAY, 1996
DUMBARTON ROAD, STIRLING
by Wm Hodge & Pollock Ltd Glasgow).
JONES OGILVIE (63). Sworn.
BY MR. BONOMY: Are you a
retired shop assistant? - Yes.
I think that you live at 11 Kent Road in Stirling?
that would make you a neighbour of Thomas
Hamilton? - Yes.
you tell us the relationship between the two houses,
how close they were? - 1, 2, 3 and 4 and that is me
and that was Mr. Hamilton.
So he was bottom
left and you are top right? - Top right.
When did he first
move to that address roughly? - I think it may be seven or eight
years ago. I'm not too sure.
But you were
already there? - I was there, yes.
And at that time
were what you would understand to be his mother and father also
in the house? - Yes.
The lady who
was known as his sister but was actually his mother, was she there
as well? - No, she didn't stay there.
Did you ever
see her? - Yes, I did see her.
was she a visitor initially? - I would have said maybe once a week.
When did you
find out the true relationship of the members of the family? - After
this incident happened.
I think Mrs. Hamilton, senior
died about a couple of years after the family moved
to 7 Kent Road? - I think so, yes.
were you then aware of Mr. Hamilton,
senior moving out? - No, I didn't know he had moved
out but I was told later.
were you aware then that Thomas Hamilton
was living in the house on his own? - Well, when I
had been told, yes.
was that? When did you know that? - Well, I would say
maybe about five or six years ago.
Now, during the
intervening period until now, or until the 13th of March, were there
many visitors to the house? - Yes.
Can you tell
me something of who these visitors were? - Well, mostly STV.
is an STV van or car? - Yes, a car.
car with STV on it? - Yes.
this is a private visitor as you would understand
it who happened to have such a car? - Yes. The
frequently were the police there? - Well, maybe once
or twice a month but quite often the police car was
- There was a landscape gardener came.
What was his
name? - James Gillespie.
Did you know
him? - No.
How did you learn
his name? - It was on his van.
any stage while Mr. Hamilton
lived there did you know anything of what he did for
a living? - Well, I did know that he did boys' camps.
Is that all you
ever knew of what he had actually done for a living? - Well, that's
all I knew about, yes.
did you know about the boys' camps? - He told me.
did you have talks, conversations, with him? - Not a lot but one
or two conversations I had with him. Out the back in the garden
or on the road.
If you met in
the street would you acknowledge each other? - If I was on the same
side as him, yes, but if I was on the other side, no.
Would you stop
in the street or would it be very rarely you would actually have
occasion to stop and speak to him? - No, I wouldn't stop and speak
So that on the
occasions when there was some conversation between you, who was
it that started the conversaton off? - It was him and I nearly jumped
out of my skin.
Can you remember
the first time that happened? - Well, if I was maybe out the back
hanging out my washing, he was there. I never heard him coming
but he was there and he would speak and I just got a fright and
I would talk but then I just left him.
Did he ever do
anything that you saw that either upset you or caused you any anxiety?
- Well, he didn't really upset me but he asked me into his house
and I was caught unawares and I went into his house but I was most
uneasy. That sort of upsetting.
Was it just one
occasion you were inside the house? - One occasion, yes.
Apart from that,
and I will come back to that in a minute, there was not anything
else you were aware of going on in the area which caused you any
concern? - Just the way he went about. He was a sort of odd
character. The way he walked and spoke.
Tell me something
about the way he walked? - He sort of crept. He was very head
down and sort of crept along.
What about the
way he spoke? - He was very proper and soft spoken.
He has been described
as a slow, deliberate speaker? - Yes.
there any sign in the activity around his house that
he had an interest in boys' clubs? - Oh, yes.
were the signs? - Well, he used to get a van from Central Region
and he told me it was for camps on Loch Lomondside or at Queen Victoria
and he used to have big boards and he would take them down the back
and paint them white. That was for flooring at the camps for
the boys to sleep on.
Did you learn
anything about whether he charged very much for these camps? - Yes.
Did you learn
that from him? - Yes, I did.
What did he tell
you about that? - £70 or £80 per week.
When you saw
a van around the house, did you see boys there as well? - Once.
What age were
they? - Well, I would have said between maybe six and 10 years of
What were they
doing? - Well, they were in the van and he would put in big rolls,
bales, of toilet rolls and washing up liquid but the boys would
be in the van or running round the van. They were never in
Tell me about
the circumstances in which he invited you into the house? - Well,
I was coming home one night round about 9 and he was at his front
door looking up towards Annfield and he had a sort of telescopic
thing in his hand and he was look at Annfield through it and he
saw me coming and he just said "Mrs. Ogilvie,
can I have a word?" and I said "Well, what is it, Tommy?". "Just
a minute" he said and his front door was open and he didn't
go to shut it. He walked in in front of me and I walked in
behind him and into his sitting room and he asked me to sit down. Well,
I did sit down.
was this? - Well, it was the summer time. I can't remember
if it was last summer or the summer before. It wasn't any
earlier than that.
you sat down what happened? - He asked me to look
at a video.
was on the video? - Small boys.
How long did
it last? - Well, he fast-forwarded it and stopped it and let it
go for a bit and then he would fast-forward it again and let it
go for a good bit. That is what he did all the time and he
was very proud because he said "These are my boys". That
is what he said. I sort of had my back to him and I was looking
out the window more often than I was looking at the video.
How long do you
reckon it lasted, showing you this video? - The bit that he showed
me, well, I think about 40 minutes.
can you tell me what you saw on the video? - Just
Doing what? -
Well, they were walking along or maybe running. I can't remember
if they were jumping over a wooden horse. I can't remember
that but I think there was one bit that there was that on it but
I'm not too sure. But they just seemed to be marching in lines,
they approach the camera at any stage? - Well, they
turned their head towards the camera.
they walked past the camera? - Yes.
So they would
come right up to it more or less and look at it and walk past? -
No, they were walking to the camera, the video, they were walking
but they were never looking straight singly. It was just as
if they were in a line and they were photographed as they were walking
up. They didn't look straight into the video.
Were there close-ups
of their faces? - No, I would have said maybe from the waist up.
Did you actually
see the boys from the top? - In one or two parts, yes.
How were they
dressed? - They had very small shiny bathing pants on.
Colour? - Black.
All of them?
Were they all
dressed the same way? - Yes.
the whole video? - Yes.
you tell whether there was only one occasion that
was being filmed or there was more than one occasion
on the video? - I would have just said one occasion.
And so far as
these boys were concerned, can you help me about their ages? - Again
I would have said seven to ten years of age.
from the video did Mr. Hamilton
show you something else? - He did.
What was that?
- He didn't take it out and show me. It was a box that
was more or less at my feet. It was like a box on a
ship, an old box with rope handles. He opened it and there
was a lot of frames in it, picture frames. There was no pictures
I don't think but he just opened it and he took out one picture
of one boy and said he was his favourite or his star pupil or something
to that effect but I just glanced at it because I was uneasy.
What was that
boy wearing? - He was just from here up -- bare skin.
No clothing on
his upper body? - No.
was it that you felt uneasy about? - I didn't think
I should have been looking at that video.
I wasn't really interested in the video.
Apart from that,
can you say whether there was anything improper, apparently improper
or indecent about it? - I wouldn't say it was indecent, but I didn't
like it. I was just uncomfortable.
Was there any
what may be described as strange activities you observed out in
the back garden? - Beg pardon?
you observe any strange activities on Mr. Hamilton's
part out in your back garden area? - Yes, fires.
- Maybe twice a month.
During what period?
- About six months.
When was that?
- Prior to this incident.
About six months
ago? - Yes.
How many times
did you observe fires? - Altogether I think I saw about a dozen.
you see what Mr. Hamilton
was burning? - No, I didn't. I smelt it.
What did you
smell? - Well, when I lived at home with my mother she had a knife
-- well, it was a sort of spatula -- and it was in the frying pan,
and the handle of the teapot was the same, and the gas was on, and
sometimes it would burn and you would smell it. Well, it was
that smell -- like Bakelite, because I came through from my living
room and I could smell it in the hall and I would say, "That's
him at that fire again". I banged the windows to let
him know I knew because he was sitting in full view because there
was these security lights at the back and when someone walks past
they light. Well, he sat on a chair and fuelled these fires.
Can you say anything
about what was being burned? - No, I only saw boxes.
Were they cardboard
boxes? - Yes, it was egg boxes, that size of box.
Could you tell
whether there was anything in the box? - Oh, yes, there was stuff
in it, yes.
You are clear
about that? - Yes.
When you were
in the house did you see any photographs on the walls of his house?
- Well, the first time I saw photographs on his walls was his living
room when I went past the house and he put the light on, and I saw
them on the back wall, but when I went into his house they had been
taken off the living room and they were in the front bedroom.
The door was slightly ajar when I went in and I saw them on the
wall of the front bedroom.
What were they
pictures of? - Boys, small boys.
What were they
wearing? - Bathing pants.
The same as the
video? - The same as the video.
was the last time you saw Mr. Hamilton?
- The Friday before this incident.
That would be
the 8th March? - Yes.
About what time?
- 8 o'clock at night.
you see him? - Coming down my path to go and visit a neighbour when
he spoke -- I didn't see him, but he was coming along the side of
the hedge on the main part of the road, and I said to him -- I got
a fright again because the hedge is quite high -- I said, "Could
you not whistle when you come?" and he says, "Did I give
you a fright?" and I said "Yes". Well, I walked
along the road with him and he was talking about ghosts.
Was he talking
about where he had, talking about a particular place when he was
talking about ghosts? - Yes.
- Upper Bridge Street, the big house, his mother and father had
a big house when he was small.
Was he carrying
anything? - Carrying anything, yes.
What was he carrying?
- Letters. He told me what he was carrying.
Did he tell you
what the letters were for? - No.
Did you see how
many he had? - Well, I didn't actually look at them. I
saw them, there was quite a few, but I mean, it could have been
a book in an envelope. I didn't really pay particular attention.
What size of
envelopes were they? - (Indicates 6 inches).
A square shape?
- No, like that.
6 inches long,
about 3 or 4 inches deep? - 4 or 5.
Apart from talking
about ghosts, which you have told us about, was there anything about
his manner or his appearance that appeared unusual on that last
occasion? - No, he was just the same.
for him? - No, just his usual creeping about.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *