OF INQUIRY (EVIDENCE) ACT, 1921.
AT THE PUBLIC INQUIRY
on 13th MARCH, l996
THE HON LORD
17th JUNE, 1996
DUMBARTON ROAD, STIRLING
Notes by Wm Hodge & Pollock Ltd
STEVEN BOAL (22) Sworn
BY MR. BONOMY: You live
in Dumbarton? - Yes.
an under-graduate student in the subject of sport
in the community? - Yes.
think that you knew Thomas Hamilton;
can you tell me when you first met him? - It was actually
through an advert on the university noticeboard for
a job applying for sports coaches for one of the summer
camps; that was in May, 1994.
when you saw the notice? - Yes.
Where was the camp
to be? - At Dunblane High School, the
first two weeks in July.
contact Hamilton? - Yes,
I noticed it was, like, a letter with headed notepaper
and it said if you wished to apply phone Mr. Hamilton
at the number.
give any indication on the notice what his work was?
- Yes, at the bottom it was actually........it was
like a graphic to do with photography, a professional
any pay specified? - I can't really remember the exact
amount but I think it was £250 for two weeks.
look official or cheapskate to you? - It did look
very official, it was headed notepaper and said the
Boys Sports Club and also it stated that Thomas
Hamilton was actually the President
or some official capacity.
you get in touch with him? - Through a phone call,
I phoned him one afternoon it was.
you phoned him? - Yes.
to the number on the notice? - Yes.
ask you to provide information to him about your background?
- Yes, I was to send my CV to him.
do that? - Yes.
a follow-up to that? - The follow-up was that........during
the telephone conversation he said I was to send my
CV to him and he would get back to me regarding a
interview you? - Yes.
that? - At his house, 7 Kent Road.
did the interview last? - I think it involved an interview
at his house and then there was a practical session
at one of the sports camps.
So he was
checking you out in some details? - Yes, he wanted
to see how I was coaching kids at one of his camps.
So he interviewed
you first of all? - Yes.
he watched you carry out a coaching session with his
children? - Yes.
you found out whether or not you had got the job?
as the interview was concerned at his house what sort
of information did he go into? - Well, he just asked
me most to do with my coaching experience as a sports
coach, the types of sports I was
actually qualified to coach.
did it last? - I think it was about half an hour.
learn in the course of the interview whether he did
any other activities with the boys other than camps?
- Yes, there was just like he had clubs throughout
the Central Region area and like various nights throughout
Did he mention any
schools? - Only one, I think it was Alloa,
I can't remember the exact name of the school -
Alloa High School.
get the impression he was conducting a number of these
in the course of any given week? - Yes, the way he
was talking it was as if maybe a Monday, Tuesday,
find out from him what he was interested in apart
from taking the boys clubs? - No.
discuss photography with you? - He said that he was
a professional photographer.
say anything about photographing children? - No.
any discussion of photographs and what may be provided
to parents and so on? - No, not at that stage.
stage? - Eventually like once I had actually been
accepted for the job he said that he would sometimes
take pictures of the kids and sell them on to the
say anything about a video at that stage? - He said
he had.......I don't think it was actually at that
particular interview, maybe it was subsequent, that
there was a promotional video of one of the camps
coaching session at which he watched you coach how
long was it before you learned whether or not you
had got the job? - He actually told me that night.
get the job? - Yes.
it you went for the session? - Alloa
actually on the night of your interview been to a
different high school with him or
was it the same night you had......? - It was the
Dunblane High School you
went to? - No, it wasn't Dunblane.
night, the first night when you were being checked
out by him, how many children were present? - Between
they doing? - There was actually two sessions and
the first hour was younger kids and the second hour
was older kids and it was playing football they were
total number over two hours was 25? - It was about
over all different ranges? - Between, I can't remember
the actual age, between maybe eight and 12.
whole piece? - Yes.
anything structured about these sessions? - Looking
back on it it was like as if they were just playing
football and that was it, there wasn't much of a coaching
element to it which I was quite disappointed with.
odd about the set up? - One thing I would say is that
generally when I take the kids there were bibs to
distinguish between the two teams, one would wear
bibs and the other would have on their tops but what
he would do would be one team would have their tops
on and one team would have their tops off, that was
the only difference I would have said.
been at any football session he was running where
both teams had their tops off? - I don't think so.
back to the first session you were aware he was checking
out what you did, can you remember whether or not
both sets of teams had their tops off on that occasion?
- I can't say either way but I don't think so.
I think you originally gave to the police indicates
that was the position? - Probably it was actually
half the boys would have their tops off.
did the camp take place? - The 1st or 2nd of July
to maybe the 14th, it was a two week period.
kids there for the whole fortnight? - No, some kids
were there for the first week and some kids actually
stayed for two weeks.
your interview and the camp did you go to any of the
clubs? - Yes, I worked sometimes at, I think it may
have been the Wednesday night, at Alloa
else? - I think I was at Dunblane
get paid for these visits? - Yes.
at Falkirk at all? - No,
not at that time.....yes, I probably would have been.
was it at Falkirk? - Grahams
at Bannockburn at all in
that period? - Yes.
did you get paid when you took the club for him? -
Generally it was £7 an hour and then it went
up to £10 an hour.
there at the same time? - Yes.
now about the period between your interview and the
camp was there any difference in the activities at
these club nights from the original night when you
were interviewed? - I don't think so, no.
- I believe at the times when he actually had his
photography equipment with him that would be the only
difference and also gymnastics as well, as you said.
gymnastics? - Yes.
that, did he? - Yes, generally he conducted that.
take photographs of that? - Not of the gymnastics,
it would be group pictures.
a group having played football or groups having done
gymnastics? - Generally it would be like at the end
of the night the kids had been playing football or
had been doing gymnastics and obviously the groups
were there and he took a group picture of them.
have much elaborate equipment for that? - Yes, I would
know anything about photographic equipment? - No.
simply take snaps like you might do on a holiday or
was it more elaborate than that? - It was like he
was structuring them, the composition, he would have
kids kneeling at the front and kids standing at the
have a tripod to put the camera on? - Yes.
a video camera on these occasions? - No.
of these occasions did he tell you why he was taking
the photographs? - He said he would sometimes actually
sell the pictures to the kids' parents.
the Dunblane camp how many
supervisors were there? - There was actually only
myself and Mr. Hamilton.
children? - About between 16 and 20.
all staying? - Yes -- I tell a lie, actually there
was one kid who came on a daily basis.
expect more than that? - I actually did, yes.
everyone that might have come turned up? - Well, I
wasn't involved in the bookings of the kids; from
the way he was talking it was as if there would be
quite a lot of kids.
stayed throughout the period? - I had two days off.
the sleeping arrangements? - It was quite surprising
because I thought there would be accommodation, separate
accommodation for most of the staff and the kids and
maybe a room for the kids but it was actually a commonroom
area; the kids would be sleeping on sofa seats and
some kids were on the floor in sleeping bags which
I found quite strange.
you and Hamilton? - We would
be in the same room on soft seats.
the activities of the camp, was there some routine
to them? - The routine, he had a particular routine
where, like, the kids would get up maybe eight, half
past eight in the morning for breakfast and then go
straight into the gym, do gymnastics, football, a
variety of sports and then maybe between 12 and one
have lunch and then after lunch they would do sports
again; the work was quite taxing for the kids, it
wasn't particularly fair to them because they were
being exercised to excess and it was too much I thought
and I aired my views, I told him I didn't think it
was right that the kids should be constantly working
in the gym doing sports, they should have some time
off to watch television and towards the end of the
camp it became a bit more relaxed, he let the kids
have a long lie until about 9 o'clock, watch TV for
half an hour so it eventually was a bit more relaxed.
told us about the morning and afternoon; what about
the evening? - It was sometimes varied, they would
consist of sports as well so the kids were doing between
probably six and eight hours sports a day which is
were these children? - Between eight and 12.
tell me anything about Hamilton's
general teaching methods? - I would say that his methods
were out-dated and it was very disciplined, he used
his authority to tell the kids what to do, sometimes
shouted at them; also he was into, like, maybe taking
the kids for circuit training which I thought was
a bit extreme; he asked me to take the kids circuit
training and I said no because kids of that age shouldn't
be doing that at all.
children enjoy these camps? - I think it was actually
mixed, it was some kids did and some didn't.
anything odd about the clothing arrangements? - Yes,
when the kids were doing their gymnastics they would
be in black shorts, swimming trunks, which I thought
was a bit strange; when I asked him with him taking
pictures of them doing gymnastics, something to do
with a physical education magazine was interested
in pictures of this; I thought it was a bit strange.
doing a course that involves, I take it, studying
how to undertake activities of this nature? - Yes.
see any place in the type of gymnastic activities
with these youngsters that Hamilton
was undertaking for them dressing in short black swimming
trunks? - He would say that it was the purpose of
catching them when they were vaulting; I would say
that a kid is more liable to get injured when they
don't have their clothes on; if the kids don't have
their clothes on and they hit the floor they may hurt
seen in your studies any examples of people running
gymnastic classes with youngsters of this age where
the children are required to wear swimming trunks?
- No, I haven't.
adjournment for lunch.
I was asking you some
questions about dress at the camps. Can you tell me how
frequently in the course of the fortnight you were there the children
were expected just to wear black swimming trunks? - Generally every
day, maybe every -- if they were doing gymnastics, say an hour at
children weren't wearing these trunks would they normally
be wearing a shirt of some kind? - Yes, normally wear
their sports stuff, either shorts and a top or a tracksuit
bottom and top.
Did they normally have
a top on when they weren't doing gymnastics? - Depends. Sometimes
they would be outside, it was quite warm, and sometimes some kinds
will take their tops off.
Was there anything
about Hamilton's behaviour when coaching
or helping children with any of the work they were doing that you
were concerned about? - He was quite -- he was like -- he pushed
them quite hard. Some of the exercises he was trying to get
them to do were in my opinion too strenuous. Just simple things
like maybe even simple press-ups. He had them doing gymnastics
and they were doing like inverted crosses, and that's quite a tough
thing to do. I am pretty sure Mr. Hamilton
himself couldn't have done it; why should he expect the kids to
Did you intercede on
the part of the children at all? - Yes. Sometimes
I would say when the kids were training, I would say to Mr. Hamilton,
"Look, give them a break" or "Don't do this". I
knew what it was going to be like and so I would say, "I think
that this is a bit over-strenuous for them".
anything about his approach to them physically that
caused you any concern? - No.
his attitude to children who couldn't perhaps touch
their toes? - He liked kids being quite physical.
If they weren't particularly good he would tell them,
he said, he would tell them to work harder.
Did he touch them very
much? - Depends. If it was gymnastics, if you were going to
coach or catch there is a certain degree of contact, but none over
the top or anything like that.
Did he take many photographs
in the fornight? - Yes. This -- I was very surprised
at the amount of pictures he took, particularly it seemed to be
always at gymnastics.
the still photographs? - Some of them were action
videos? - No.
largely when the children were wearing swimming trunks?
- Yes, generally, yes.
What about the catering
arrangements. Were you well fed? - We were well fed, yes,
I would have to say. It was very basic food but the kids seemed
to sort of like it.
Did you ever ask Mr. Hamilton
about how he financed all his activities? - He said that - do you
mean particularly this camp itself?
clubs? - What he said was he actually got free lets
from Central Region so therefore it didn't cost him
for the schools and that.
he mention anything about getting assistance from
anyone to get these lets? - Councillor
What did he say about
Councillor Ball? - He said he was a friend of him, he generally
did assist him getting lets for any school he wished. LINK
After this camp was
over did you continue to assist Mr. Hamilton?
- Well, once the camp was over obviously it was during the school
holidays so therefore the schools and stuff were closed. I
never heard from him until maybe August/September of that year,
and he would phone me up and ask would I maybe perhaps like to come
up and do some coaching, and that was quite -- maybe about a month
later it would be.
that period in late 1974 were you aware of any clubs
folding? - I never actually knew anything about how
many clubs he was running therefore I couldn't really
be definite and say i.e. clubs did fold.
Were there any clubs
that didn't seem to take place in late 1994? - Yes, the Alloa
Club, and I once went to a club in Alva, and that was a Sunday morning.
He told me that club was quite busy the first couple of weeks and
he was needing some help so I went up. There was actually
only about eight kids which was quite surprising to see that, so
therefore I was never out at that one.
club come to an end? - Yes.
- I don't actually know obviously because I wasn't
involved in the running of it but I assume yes.
Did the Alloa
one come to an end? - Alloa one, I think
he only had the let up until when the schools closed.
I don't know if he renewed the let, I don't think he did, therefore
the club wasn't on after the camp.
September when the schools are back and December did
you assist him? - I occasionally worked for him.
- He had a club in Grahams High School, Falkirk,
and sometimes in Dunblane
on a Thursday night.
Did you get properly
paid for the fortnight's camp you did? - Well, I had actually to
check my bank records on the camp and I checked actually, and the
cheque I was actually paid actually bounced. I put it into
the bank because I am actually a student myself, so when the cheque
bounced itself, so I was straight on the phone again because I had
been charged with my bank and I said, "Look, the cheque has
bounced". He said, "Look, I am very sorry about
it". I actually went to the bank twice and it bounced
eventually paid? - Eventually, yes.
was it for? - £280. Originally it
was supposed to be £250.
and December were you being paid for temporarily assisting
him? - Yes, depending on the nights of the week.
I think you brought your relationship to an end? -
Yes, because like, the only reason I had -- you might
think it strange because I was at Dumbarton
and I was travelling away up to Stirling,
but the only reason I came to Stirling
was my girlfriend at the time was at Stirling
University so therefore I had a contact within Stirling,
so it was quite convenient for me to work in Stirling.
your reason for bringing it to an end? - Well, sometimes
he would maybe have me pick him up outside his house
and he would have his camera stuff, equipment with
him, and I felt that I was getting like a taxi service
rather than a sports coach.
concern over what he was doing at the clubs that made
this end? - No.
you next hear from him? - It must have been -- well,
after I said I wasn't coming to work for him he kept
on phoning to say are you coming up and I said "No."
It would be maybe May time.
the purpose of him contacting you then? - That was
because he was looking for somebody for a sports camp
in summer 1995, and he was actually asking myself
whether I would be willing to work with him for two
agree to that? - No, I just felt like it was only
two weeks work, and I was unemployed and obviously
the school period is over six weeks, so I was hoping
to gain further employment.
Was it knowing about
the previous year's camp that was influencing your view? - Well,
to a certain extent. I never particularly liked the fact
the kids had to do so much strenuous work. The sleeping arrangements
weren't particularly good as I previously mentioned.
do anything to try to persuade you? - He increased
the amount of money that I was going to work for.
- I think it was £300.
you didn't take that job? - That's right.
had another job? - That's right.
that? - It was actually by Mr. Hamilton
I actually gained that employment. It
was at the International School teaching Spanish kids
Where was that? - Queen
Victoria School. LINK
a longer period than two weeks? - It was for four
weeks. I gained that employment because Mr. Hamilton
had gave my number on to somebody else.
were at that training....? - It was a school.
While you were there
did you go to Dunblane High School Club
at all? - Yes. He phoned me up a couple of times saying "Why
don't you come down and see" -- some of the boys who had been
at the previous camp were actually there in 1995 and he said "Why
don't you come down and see how they are getting on".
go? - I went down three times.
Hamilton have any assistance
at the camp? - Yes, he had one qualified teacher and
two other students.
see them there? - Yes.
Did they know what
they were doing, or appear to know what they were doing? - Yes.
It was just virtually similar to exactly why I was there, i.e.,
while the kids were doing gymnastics, and they were in their trunks
kids were there? - I estimate 25/28.
So it was
bigger than the year before? - Yes.
On one of the visits
you were there did you come across a child who was upset? - Yes.
There was a kid in a corner crying. I asked him -- no, I never
asked the kid directly -- I asked what was wrong with the kid and
they said that he was homesick and he was upset. It was just
he was homesick and therefore he was in a corner crying. I
thought it was a bit harsh and when talking to him........
Did he say whether
he had run away? - Yes, I think he did. He said maybe
two boys had run away the previous night and he said they came back
and their parents had been notified. The parents seemed quite
happy to have the kids continue.
children wearing black swimming trunks again? - On
the occasions I was there I was doing gymnastics,
yes, and they were in their swimming trunks.
at that camp did the children appear to you to be happy or unhappy?
- I don't think they enjoyed the gymnastics; I think they found
that quite hard work. On the whole they seemed -- no, I never
really had that much contact at the time. They seemed okay,
What about the people
who were working with them this time? Was he getting
on with them? - He said he had a couple of problems with them because,
in particular the school teacher, because I didn't think they were
particularly impressed by his teaching methods, i.e. kids being
in trunks, the same as I thought myself, a bit strange.
any photographs taken on any of your visits? - He
did take several when I went, yes. There
was a picture taken, a group picture outside.
How were the kids dressed
for that? - They were wearing swimming trunks. The staff were
in the same picture with him.
you next became directly involved with him in September,
1995? - Yes, that is right.
you again? - He contacted me just asking me obviously
- he was saying he was actually thinking about expanding
his clubs as an organisation up to the Edinburgh area
and round about the Glasgow area.
in Glasgow is that to be? - It was -- he looked at
a couple of places like Milngavie and Bishopbriggs
and eventually Bishopbriggs.
Were you willing to
help on this occasion? - Well, when I was at the camp he said I
would be running the club myself. The way I would see
it, I had to organise it myself and he wouldn't be there.
Subsequently he was there every week.
interfere with your organisation? - I was annoyed
with the fact he was there "No, you run this
club the way you see fit".
Were you not allowed
to run it in your own way? - Obviously his teaching methods are
different from mine. You know, as I say, he had the kids
with their tops off where I like to have kids wearing bibs like
on top of a tee shirt? - Yes.
Was he insisting you
follow his code rather than yours? - It was quite convenient because
we actually had two gyms eventually. I was working in one
gym myself so I could do coaching the way I seen fit, and he would
have a group in the gym.
What did he do? - It
was generally football. I did a lot of football and basketball
coachng but he seemed to just let them play football.
Were you aware he was
distributing leaflets advertising his club? - Yes, that is right.
I never actually knew until he actually -- the first night in the
actual club I never knew that my name had been distributed. There
were leaflets there, I was the club coach of the boys' club.
I was a bit annoyed because it had my phone number and stuff.
see any of these leaflets? - He eventually posted
look at S BOAL/6 which is also D8 in Volume J(iv)?
- Yes, that is it.
got your name in it? - Yes.
What does it say about
you? - It says here "Club coach, Mr. Ian Boal".
It says, "CV available on request", and also my address.
Would you also look
at DSRC/ES3 which is D4 in J(iv). Look at the top of
the page. You will see this is an application form for the
let of James Muir High School. Does that have your name on
it? - Yes. I never actually knew about that until the police said
It is relating
to a period when you were actually coaching at James
Muir High School in Bishopbriggs?
knew nothing about your name being on the document?
you a position, did it not? - Yes, if I can remember,
Secretary of the club or something like that.
remember the document also had a list of Committee
members on it? - Yes. Well, he told me there was a
Committee for his clubs.
ever meet the Committee? - Never.
ever meet any of the people whose names are on that
form? - No.
I don't know if you
have got the form yet or not. Do you see your name there
as the secretary? - Yes.
also list the names of the Committee members? - That
is right, yes.
read them out please? - Mr. D. McDonald, Mr. and Mrs.
Andrew, Mr. and Mrs. Hoggan, Mrs. Munro, Mr. K. Barker,
Mr. and Mrs. Hall, Mr. I. Boal, Mr. T.W. Hamilton
and Mrs. A. Watt.
you there was a Committee and you didn't realise you
were on it? - Yes.
when this club in Thomas Muir High School
started up was it well attended? - The first couple of weeks we
had I think it was 68 kids.
able to cope with that? - We actually only had one
remember a waiting list at any time? - Yes, I remember
the stuff, there was going to be a waiting list, so
I think he was actually writing to the kids or their
club run right up until the incident at Dunblane?
- That's right, yes.
involved in that right up until the end? - That is
Were you also involved
in running any other club during 1995 into 1996? - Occasionally
Bishopbriggs would go up to Dunblane
High School on a Thursday night. He had got
a minibus or something from Central Region, and he would go up,
pick up the kids from Bishopbriggs Club,
and sometimes when they were up there I would go up obviously as
I was a coach.
on a Bishopbriggs night?
- No, that was a Thursday night.
an extra night? - Yes.
also coach of any other sports clubs he had? - Occasionally
I would go up to the Dunblane
Club when I think it was Bannockburn
were the kids that were there.
What about Graham's
High School, was it still going on? - No.
any other clubs where the boys were moved from one
area to another to make up the numbers at another
club? - I think -- I wasn't involved in shifting kids
from place to place, but I think actually he did take
kids from maybe Callander, maybe that area, up to
photographs taken at Bishopbriggs?
So at the
time the Bishopbriggs Club
starts up his camera equipment disappeared? - Yes.
It was quite strange like because he used always to
talk about cameras, what he made out of it like, taking
pictures of families, various events, the assignments
he had, and he seemed to be quite happily involved
in cameras and stuff, how he used to buy and sell
cameras and just equipment in general.
over as the subject of conversation with him? - His
When did the guns first
come into the conversation? - The earliest recollection I have of
his involvement in guns -- he said at the summer camp that he did
have guns but he hadn't been using them, it was just an old hobby
or something and the new hobby was photography. So he
actually never spoke much about guns, so the earliest was maybe
round about just before Christmastime he started talking about how
he was heavily involved in using guns and stuff.
From then until March
was that the type of conversation? - Yes. He used to
annoy me in a sense because I was busy coaching and when I was coaching
usually he would stand at my shoulder, next to my shoulder, talking
about his guns hobby, various things which, being honest, I didn't
have any interest in guns, so it was pretty boring.
was the last time you met him? - The last time I met
him was the Monday previous to the incident.
Was that at Thomas
Muir High School in Bishopbriggs?
How did he seem that
night? - He was talking about guns as per usual. He also --
I can remember his last words, and he just -- I took him down to
train station and he just said, "Thanks very much, Ian, see
you next Monday". Again, it was just like a normal Monday.
Was there any discussion
about bullets in the course of that evening? - It was quite strange
because like maybe three or four weeks before he kept talking about
guns, bullets, like where he had been shooting. I think
he had been shooting on the Wednesday before, the week prior to
the shooting he had been shooting, out at actually at the club or
something shooting, and how he got a new gun, and also about bullets,
what certain bullets could do.
Do you remember any
detail about that? - It was something of hindsight, I mean, but
it was something that was quite strange because like he used to
talk about the spray of a bullet. I don't know anything about
ballistics at all but he would be talking about what bullets could
do, sprays like, it hit someone and disintegrates in a sense rather
than exiting right through, and how he was testing out bullets to
see which were the best, to prevent jamming of his cartridge guns.
say what size of gun he preferred and what size of
ammunition? - Was it 9 millimetres or something.
statement to the police you told them he also used
9 millimetre bullets because they did not have a tendency
to jam as frequently? - Yes.
remember that being said to you? - Yes.
Did he say anything
about the tip or head of the bullets at all? - He says depending
on the type of head -- well, it would depend what bullets you actually
had, with the spray and stuff. He also said he had been testing
bullets to see which were best. When I say tested -- I found
this quite strange he actually did this, he would go to the target
range in the club and shoot at books and he would see the spray
of the bullet going through the thickness. Say the book was
maybe this thick, he could actually see where the bullets went through
and what it did to the book. Obviously if it sprayed it would
go out wide, and he was doing -- he also said he experimented with
alcohol and the effects of alcohol upon his shooting, although he
said he never actually drank.
know from your own experience he didn't drink? - Yes.
He told me he never drank.
ever see him drink alcohol? - No.
What did he say he
was experimenting with it for? - He said he would -- he only did
it once -- again this annoyed me because you are obviously working
with kids and he was telling me this and, being honest, I wasn't
really listening to him. He said he did take a couple of drinks
and then go up to the range to see how accurate his shooting had
been from this. I said to him "How accurate was it?"
and he said "It wasn't particularly very accurate", it
wasn't particularly good for him.
say anything about how well the bullets penetrated?
- Yes. He talked about bullets and actually
-- was this 30 centimetres or 30 inches or something
and it would go, the words were, through someone.
kids were there on the Monday night? - On the Monday
before, about 20 I think.
When you drove Hamilton
to the station that evening was there any conversation about film?
- Yes. He offered me -- which was quite strange -- a copy
of Aliens video, which I thought quite strange. I said No. He
said to me "I have just got it today" or something, and
he said, "I have got it in my pocket". I thought
that a bit strange.
mention any other video? - The Terminators.
say why he liked the two videos? - He liked them because
of the guns.
a reference to one or both videos? - Both of them.
Did he ever involve
any of the children in converations about guns or bullets? - I never
found this out until I was actually speaking to the kids and I said
to them, "What was Mr. Hamilton talking
to you about" and they said -- the kids had said he had been
talking about looking at the largest thing he had shot. This
was a sort of joke, his type of joke, and it was he had shot a moose,
and the kids thought it was a mouse, so he thought it was funny. I
thought it was a bit strange, talking to kids about guns.
Did he ever show the
children anything? - I don't think he actually showed the children
but he actually -- I think he did because he actually had like a
flier -- not a flier, a catalogue of bullets -- I never knew there
was such things -- and it was a catalogue for types of bullets.
There was a picture of a moose on the front of it and he was saying
this is what I shot, this is what a moose looks like, not a mouse. I
said to him like, "I do not think -- you shouldn't really be
talking to kids about guns. You don't want like to influence
get any reaction to that? - He went like "Ach,
it's okay, kids play soldiers all the time".
ever write to you? - Yes.
How often? - Generally
it would happen if I was working for him, he would send me a cheque,
and the last letters I received were on headed notepaper up until
round about Christmas time and I noticed most of the correspondence
never had headed notepaper. Also they never had anything to
do with photography. They weren't personal letters but they
were more of you contracted to work for eight weeks. In January
I received a letter from him because one of the nights at the camp
- not the camp, the club - one of the boys had been, they were
not to kick the ball above head height, so this boy had hit the
ball into the roof and just missed the lights. I shouted at
him - his name was David - "David, watch what you are doing". At
the time Mr. Hamilton sort of looked at
me but never said anything. During the week - I think it
was the Thursday - I received a letter saying how my teaching method
was completely wrong, my attitude was terrible, and I had - I don't
mean that it was threatening or such, it was what are you doing
been there when this happened? - Yes.
speak to you about it? - No, he didn't speak to me
intend to carry on working with him? - Well, I was
quite annoyed at this letter, so what happened was
I waited until the Monday night after I received the
letter and told him on the Monday night I was going
to see out my contract which was up until just before
Easter because I wasn't going to put up with hassle
he was giving me through writing a letter like that
you going to work to? - It would have been Easter
time, the Monday before Easter, when the schools finished.
got paid up to then? - I was paid up to then.
time in any conversation with him did Mr. Hamilton
ever mention Dunblane Primary School?
last saw him did he seem any different from the way
he had been on the nights, the Monday or two beforehand?
- No, just like talking about his guns again, therefore
for the four week period leading up to it he was more
so talking about guns, where he had been shooting
and stuff which to me, it looked as though it was
just a hobby he had.
Any change in his personality
you could detect even looking at him? - He was very -- his personality
was very dry. He wasn't the most interesting person to
have a conversation with.
change? - It never changed.
time immediately before this incident at Dunblane?
did you notice any significant change in him as a
person apart from conversations dealing with guns?
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